Theninwhatsortofpartnershipisthejustmanabetterpartnerthantheharp—player，asinplayingtheharptheharp—playeriscertainlyabetterpartnerthanthejustman？
　　Inamoneypartnership。
　　Yes，Polemarchus，butsurelynotintheuseofmoney；foryoudonotwantajustmantobeyourcounsellorthepurchaseorsaleofahorse；
　　amanwhoisknowingabouthorseswouldbebetterforthat，wouldhenot？
　　Certainly。
　　Andwhenyouwanttobuyaship，theshipwrightorthepilotwouldbebetter？
　　True。
　　Thenwhatisthatjointuseofsilverorgoldinwhichthejustmanistobepreferred？
　　Whenyouwantadeposittobekeptsafely。
　　Youmeanwhenmoneyisnotwanted，butallowedtolie？
　　Precisely。
　　Thatistosay，justiceisusefulwhenmoneyisuseless？
　　Thatistheinference。
　　Andwhenyouwanttokeepapruning—hooksafe，thenjusticeisusefultotheindividualandtothestate；butwhenyouwanttouseit，thentheartofthevine—dresser？
　　Clearly。
　　Andwhenyouwanttokeepashieldoralyre，andnottousethem，youwouldsaythatjusticeisuseful；butwhenyouwanttousethem，thentheartofthesoldierorofthemusician？
　　Certainly。
　　Andsoofalltheotherthings；——justiceisusefulwhentheyareuseless，anduselesswhentheyareuseful？
　　Thatistheinference。
　　Thenjusticeisnotgoodformuch。Butletusconsiderthisfurtherpoint：Isnothewhocanbeststrikeablowinaboxingmatchorinanykindoffightingbestabletowardoffablow？
　　Certainly。
　　Andhewhoismostskilfulinpreventingorescapingfromadiseaseisbestabletocreateone？
　　True。
　　Andheisthebestguardofacampwhoisbestabletostealamarchupontheenemy？
　　Certainly。
　　Thenhewhoisagoodkeeperofanythingisalsoagoodthief？
　　That，Isuppose，istobeinferred。
　　Thenifthejustmanisgoodatkeepingmoney，heisgoodatstealingit。
　　Thatisimpliedintheargument。
　　Thenafterallthejustmanhasturnedouttobeathief。AndthisisalessonwhichIsuspectyoumusthavelearntoutofHomer；forhe，speakingofAutolycus，thematernalgrandfatherofOdysseus，whoisafavouriteofhis，affirmsthatHewasexcellentaboveallmenintheftandperjury。
　　Andso，youandHomerandSimonidesareagreedthatjusticeisanartoftheft；tobepractisedhowever’forthegoodoffriendsandfortheharmofenemies，’——thatwaswhatyouweresaying？
　　No，certainlynotthat，thoughIdonotnowknowwhatIdidsay；butIstillstandbythelatterwords。
　　Well，thereisanotherquestion：Byfriendsandenemiesdowemeanthosewhoaresoreally，oronlyinseeming？
　　Surely，hesaid，amanmaybeexpectedtolovethosewhomhethinksgood，andtohatethosewhomhethinksevil。
　　Yes，butdonotpersonsoftenerraboutgoodandevil：manywhoarenotgoodseemtobeso，andconversely？
　　Thatistrue。
　　Thentothemthegoodwillbeenemiesandtheevilwillbetheirfriends？True。
　　Andinthatcasetheywillberightindoinggoodtotheevilandeviltothegood？
　　Clearly。
　　Butthegoodarejustandwouldnotdoaninjustice？
　　True。
　　Thenaccordingtoyourargumentitisjusttoinjurethosewhodonowrong？
　　Nay，Socrates；thedoctrineisimmoral。
　　ThenIsupposethatweoughttodogoodtothejustandharmtotheunjust？
　　Ilikethatbetter。
　　Butseetheconsequence：——Manyamanwhoisignorantofhumannaturehasfriendswhoarebadfriends，andinthatcaseheoughttodoharmtothem；andhehasgoodenemieswhomheoughttobenefit；
　　but，ifso，weshallbesayingtheveryoppositeofthatwhichweaffirmedtobethemeaningofSimonides。
　　Verytrue，hesaid：andIthinkthatwehadbettercorrectanerrorintowhichweseemtohavefallenintheuseofthewords’friend’and’enemy。’
　　Whatwastheerror，Polemarchus？Iasked。
　　Weassumedthatheisafriendwhoseemstobeorwhoisthoughtgood。
　　Andhowistheerrortobecorrected？
　　Weshouldrathersaythatheisafriendwhois，aswellasseems，good；andthathewhoseemsonly，andisnotgood，onlyseemstobeandisnotafriend；andofanenemythesamemaybesaid。
　　Youwouldarguethatthegoodareourfriendsandthebadourenemies？
　　Yes。
　　Andinsteadofsayingsimplyaswedidatfirst，thatitisjusttodogoodtoourfriendsandharmtoourenemies，weshouldfurthersay：Itisjusttodogoodtoourfriendswhentheyaregoodandharmtoourenemieswhentheyareevil？
　　Yes，thatappearstometobethetruth。
　　Butoughtthejusttoinjureanyoneatall？
　　Undoubtedlyheoughttoinjurethosewhoarebothwickedandhisenemies。
　　Whenhorsesareinjured，aretheyimprovedordeteriorated？
　　Thelatter。
　　Deteriorated，thatistosay，inthegoodqualitiesofhorses，notofdogs？
　　Yes，ofhorses。
　　Anddogsaredeterioratedinthegoodqualitiesofdogs，andnotofhorses？
　　Ofcourse。
　　Andwillnotmenwhoareinjuredbedeterioratedinthatwhichisthepropervirtueofman？
　　Certainly。
　　Andthathumanvirtueisjustice？
　　Tobesure。
　　Thenmenwhoareinjuredareofnecessitymadeunjust？
　　Thatistheresult。
　　Butcanthemusicianbyhisartmakemenunmusical？
　　Certainlynot。
　　Orthehorsemanbyhisartmakethembadhorsemen？
　　Impossible。
　　Andcanthejustbyjusticemakemenunjust，orspeakinggeneralcanthegoodbyvirtuemakethembad？
　　Assuredlynot。
　　Anymorethanheatcanproducecold？
　　Itcannot。
　　Ordroughtmoisture？
　　Clearlynot。
　　Norcanthegoodharmanyone？
　　Impossible。
　　Andthejustisthegood？
　　Certainly。
　　Thentoinjureafriendoranyoneelseisnottheactofajustman，butoftheopposite，whoistheunjust？
　　Ithinkthatwhatyousayisquitetrue，Socrates。
　　Thenifamansaysthatjusticeconsistsintherepaymentofdebts，andthatgoodisthedebtwhichamanowestohisfriends，andevilthedebtwhichheowestohisenemies，——tosaythisisnotwise；foritisnottrue，if，ashasbeenclearlyshown，theinjuringofanothercanbeinnocasejust。
　　Iagreewithyou，saidPolemarchus。
　　ThenyouandIarepreparedtotakeuparmsagainstanyonewhoattributessuchasayingtoSimonidesorBiasorPittacus，oranyotherwisemanorseer？
　　Iamquitereadytodobattleatyourside，hesaid。
　　ShallItellyouwhoseIbelievethesayingtobe？
　　Whose？
　　IbelievethatPerianderorPerdiccasorXerxesorIsmeniastheTheban，orsomeotherrichandmightyman，whohadagreatopinionofhisownpower，wasthefirsttosaythatjusticeis’doinggoodtoyourfriendsandharmtoyourenemies。’
　　Mosttrue，hesaid。
　　Yes，Isaid；butifthisdefinitionofjusticealsobreaksdown，whatothercanbeoffered？
　　SeveraltimesinthecourseofthediscussionThrasymachushadmadeanattempttogettheargumentintohisownhands，andhadbeenputdownbytherestofthecompany，whowantedtoheartheend。ButwhenPolemarchusandIhaddonespeakingandtherewasapause，hecouldnolongerholdhispeace；and，gatheringhimselfup，hecameatuslikeawildbeast，seekingtodevourus。Wewerequitepanic—strickenatthesightofhim。
　　SOCRATES—POLEMARCHUS—THRASYMACHUS
　　Heroaredouttothewholecompany：Whatfolly。Socrates，hastakenpossessionofyouall？Andwhy，sillybillies，doyouknockundertooneanother？Isaythatifyouwantreallytoknowwhatjusticeis，youshouldnotonlyaskbutanswer，andyoushouldnotseekhonourtoyourselffromtherefutationofanopponent，buthaveyourownanswer；forthereismanyaonewhocanaskandcannotanswer。AndnowIwillnothaveyousaythatjusticeisdutyoradvantageorprofitorgainorinterest，forthissortofnonsensewillnotdoforme；Imusthaveclearnessandaccuracy。
　　Iwaspanic—strickenathiswords，andcouldnotlookathimwithouttrembling。IndeedIbelievethatifIhadnotfixedmyeyeuponhim，I
　　shouldhavebeenstruckdumb：butwhenIsawhisfuryrising，Ilookedathimfirst，andwasthereforeabletoreplytohim。
　　Thrasymachus，Isaid，withaquiver，don’tbeharduponus。
　　PolemarchusandImayhavebeenguiltyofalittlemistakeintheargument，butIcanassureyouthattheerrorwasnotintentional。
　　Ifwewereseekingforapieceofgold，youwouldnotimaginethatwewere’knockingundertooneanother，’andsolosingourchanceoffindingit。Andwhy，whenweareseekingforjustice，athingmorepreciousthanmanypiecesofgold，doyousaythatweareweaklyyieldingtooneanotherandnotdoingourutmosttogetatthetruth？Nay，mygoodfriend，wearemostwillingandanxioustodoso，butthefactisthatwecannot。Andifso，youpeoplewhoknowallthingsshouldpityusandnotbeangrywithus。
　　HowcharacteristicofSocrates！hereplied，withabitterlaugh；
　　——that’syourironicalstyle！DidInotforesee——haveInotalreadytoldyou，thatwhateverhewasaskedhewouldrefusetoanswer，andtryironyoranyothershuffle，inorderthathemightavoidanswering？
　　Youareaphilosopher，Thrasymachus，Ireplied，andwellknowthatifyouaskapersonwhatnumbersmakeuptwelve，takingcaretoprohibithimwhomyouaskfromansweringtwicesix，orthreetimesfour，orsixtimestwo，orfourtimesthree，’forthissortofnonsensewillnotdoforme，’——thenobviously，thatisyourwayofputtingthequestion，noonecanansweryou。Butsupposethatheweretoretort，’Thrasymachus，whatdoyoumean？Ifoneofthesenumberswhichyouinterdictbethetrueanswertothequestion，amI
　　falselytosaysomeothernumberwhichisnottherightone？——isthatyourmeaning？’—Howwouldyouanswerhim？
　　Justasifthetwocaseswereatallalike！hesaid。
　　Whyshouldtheynotbe？Ireplied；andeveniftheyarenot，butonlyappeartobesotothepersonwhoisasked，oughthenottosaywhathethinks，whetheryouandIforbidhimornot？
　　Ipresumethenthatyouaregoingtomakeoneoftheinterdictedanswers？
　　IdaresaythatImay，notwithstandingthedanger，ifuponreflectionIapproveofanyofthem。
　　ButwhatifIgiveyouanansweraboutjusticeotherandbetter，hesaid，thananyofthese？Whatdoyoudeservetohavedonetoyou？
　　Donetome！——asbecomestheignorant，Imustlearnfromthewise——thatiswhatIdeservetohavedonetome。
　　What，andnopayment！apleasantnotion！
　　IwillpaywhenIhavethemoney，Ireplied。
　　SOCRATES—THRASYMACHUS—GLAUCON
　　Butyouhave，Socrates，saidGlaucon：andyou，Thrasymachus，needbeundernoanxietyaboutmoney，forwewillallmakeacontributionforSocrates。
　　Yes，hereplied，andthenSocrateswilldoashealwaysdoes——refusetoanswerhimself，buttakeandpulltopiecestheanswerofsomeoneelse。
　　Why，mygoodfriend，Isaid，howcananyoneanswerwhoknows，andsaysthatheknows，justnothing；andwho，evenifhehassomefaintnotionsofhisown，istoldbyamanofauthoritynottoutterthem？
　　Thenaturalthingis，thatthespeakershouldbesomeonelikeyourselfwhoprofessestoknowandcantellwhatheknows。Willyouthenkindlyanswer，fortheedificationofthecompanyandofmyself？
　　GlauconandtherestofthecompanyjoinedinmyrequestandThrasymachus，asanyonemightsee，wasinrealityeagertospeak；forhethoughtthathehadanexcellentanswer，andwoulddistinguishhimself。Butatfirsthetoinsistonmyanswering；atlengthheconsentedtobegin。Behold，hesaid，thewisdomofSocrates；herefusestoteachhimself，andgoesaboutlearningofothers，towhomheneverevensaysthankyou。
　　ThatIlearnofothers，Ireplied，isquitetrue；butthatIamungratefulIwhollydeny。MoneyIhavenone，andthereforeIpayinpraise，whichisallIhave：andhowreadyIamtopraiseanyonewhoappearstometospeakwellyouwillverysoonfindoutwhenyouanswer；forIexpectthatyouwillanswerwell。
　　Listen，then，hesaid；Iproclaimthatjusticeisnothingelsethantheinterestofthestronger。Andnowwhydoyounotme？Butofcourseyouwon’t。
　　Letmefirstunderstandyou，Ireplied。justice，asyousay，istheinterestofthestronger。What，Thrasymachus，isthemeaningofthis？YoucannotmeantosaythatbecausePolydamas，thepancratiast，isstrongerthanweare，andfindstheeatingofbeefconducivetohisbodilystrength，thattoeatbeefisthereforeequallyforourgoodwhoareweakerthanheis，andrightandjustforus？
　　That’sabominableofyou，Socrates；youtakethewordsinthesensewhichismostdamagingtotheargument。
　　Notatall，mygoodsir，Isaid；Iamtryingtounderstandthem；andIwishthatyouwouldbealittleclearer。
　　Well，hesaid，haveyouneverheardthatformsofgovernmentdiffer；
　　therearetyrannies，andtherearedemocracies，andtherearearistocracies？
　　Yes，Iknow。
　　Andthegovernmentistherulingpowerineachstate？
　　Certainly。
　　Andthedifferentformsofgovernmentmakelawsdemocratical，aristocratical，tyrannical，withaviewtotheirseveralinterests；
　　andtheselaws，whicharemadebythemfortheirowninterests，arethejusticewhichtheydelivertotheirsubjects，andhimwhotransgressesthemtheypunishasabreakerofthelaw，andunjust。AndthatiswhatImeanwhenIsaythatinallstatesthereisthesameprincipleofjustice，whichistheinterestofthegovernment；andasthegovernmentmustbesupposedtohavepower，theonlyreasonableconclusionis，thateverywherethereisoneprincipleofjustice，whichistheinterestofthestronger。
　　NowIunderstandyou，Isaid；andwhetheryouarerightornotI
　　willtrytodiscover。Butletmeremark，thatindefiningjusticeyouhaveyourselfusedtheword’interest’whichyouforbademetouse。Itistrue，however，thatinyourdefinitionthewords’ofthestronger’areadded。
　　Asmalladdition，youmustallow，hesaid。
　　Greatorsmall，nevermindaboutthat：wemustfirstenquirewhetherwhatyouaresayingisthetruth。Nowwearebothagreedthatjusticeisinterestofsomesort，butyougoontosay’ofthestronger’；aboutthisadditionIamnotsosure，andmustthereforeconsiderfurther。
　　Proceed。
　　Iwill；andfirsttellme，Doyouadmitthatitisjustorsubjectstoobeytheirrulers？
　　Ido。
　　Butaretherulersofstatesabsolutelyinfallible，oraretheysometimesliabletoerr？
　　Tobesure，hereplied，theyareliabletoerr。
　　Theninmakingtheirlawstheymaysometimesmakethemrightly，andsometimesnot？
　　True。
　　Whentheymakethemrightly，theymakethemagreeablytotheirinterest；whentheyaremistaken，contrarytotheirinterest；youadmitthat？
　　Yes。
　　Andthelawswhichtheymakemustbeobeyedbytheirsubjects，——andthatiswhatyoucalljustice？
　　Doubtless。
　　Thenjustice，accordingtoyourargument，isnotonlyobediencetotheinterestofthestrongerbutthereverse？
　　Whatisthatyouaresaying？heasked。
　　Iamonlyrepeatingwhatyouaresaying，Ibelieve。Butletusconsider：Havewenotadmittedthattherulersmaybemistakenabouttheirowninterestinwhattheycommand，andalsothattoobeythemisjustice？Hasnotthatbeenadmitted？
　　Yes。
　　Thenyoumustalsohaveacknowledgedjusticenottobefortheinterestofthestronger，whentherulersunintentionallycommandthingstobedonewhicharetotheirowninjury。Forif，asyousay，justiceistheobediencewhichthesubjectrenderstotheircommands，inthatcase，Owisestofmen，isthereanyescapefromtheconclusionthattheweakerarecommandedtodo，notwhatisfortheinterest，butwhatisfortheinjuryofthestronger？
　　Nothingcanbeclearer，Socrates，saidPolemarchus。
　　SOCRATES—CLEITOPHON—POLEMARCHUS—THRASYMACHUS
　　Yes，saidCleitophon，interposing，ifyouareallowedtobehiswitness。
　　Butthereisnoneedofanywitness，saidPolemarchus，forThrasymachushimselfacknowledgesthatrulersmaysometimescommandwhatisnotfortheirowninterest，andthatforsubjectstoobeythemisjustice。
　　Yes，Polemarchus，——Thrasymachussaidthatforsubjectstodowhatwascommandedbytheirrulersisjust。
　　Yes，Cleitophon，buthealsosaidthatjusticeistheinterestofthestronger，and，whileadmittingboththesepropositions，hefurtheracknowledgedthatthestrongermaycommandtheweakerwhoarehissubjectstodowhatisnotforhisowninterest；whencefollowsthatjusticeistheinjuryquiteasmuchastheinterestofthestronger。
　　But，saidCleitophon，hemeantbytheinterestofthestrongerwhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterest，——thiswaswhattheweakerhadtodo；andthiswasaffirmedbyhimtobejustice。
　　Thosewerenothiswords，rejoinedPolemarchus。
　　SOCRATES—THRASYMACHUS
　　Nevermind，Ireplied，ifhenowsaysthattheyare，letusaccepthisstatement。Tellme，Thrasymachus，Isaid，didyoumeanbyjusticewhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterest，whetherreallysoornot？
　　Certainlynot，hesaid。DoyousupposethatIcallhimwhoismistakenthestrongeratthetimewhenheismistaken？
　　Yes，Isaid，myimpressionwasthatyoudidso，whenyouadmittedthattherulerwasnotinfalliblebutmightbesometimesmistaken。
　　Youarguelikeaninformer，Socrates。Doyoumean，forexample，thathewhoismistakenaboutthesickisaphysicianinthatheismistaken？orthathewhoerrsinarithmeticorgrammarisanarithmeticianorgrammarianatthemewhenheismakingthemistake，inrespectofthemistake？True，wesaythatthephysicianorarithmeticianorgrammarianhasmadeamistake，butthisisonlyawayofspeaking；forthefactisthatneitherthegrammariannoranyotherpersonofskillevermakesamistakeinsofarasheiswhathisnameimplies；theynoneofthemerrunlesstheirskillfailsthem，andthentheyceasetobeskilledartists。Noartistorsageorrulererrsatthetimewhenheiswhathisnameimplies；thoughheiscommonlysaidtoerr，andIadoptedthecommonmodeofspeaking。Buttobeperfectlyaccurate，sinceyouaresuchaloverofaccuracy，weshouldsaythattheruler，insofarasheistheruler，isunerring，and，beingunerring，alwayscommandsthatwhichisforhisowninterest；andthesubjectisrequiredtoexecutehiscommands；andtherefore，asIsaidatfirstandnowrepeat，justiceistheinterestofthestronger。
　　Indeed，Thrasymachus，anddoIreallyappeartoyoutoarguelikeaninformer？
　　Certainly，hereplied。
　　AndyousupposethatIaskthesequestionswithanydesignofinjuringyouintheargument？
　　Nay，hereplied，’suppose’isnottheword——Iknowit；butyouwillbefoundout，andbysheerforceofargumentyouwillneverprevail。
　　Ishallnotmaketheattempt，mydearman；buttoavoidanymisunderstandingoccurringbetweenusinfuture，letmeask，inwhatsensedoyouspeakofarulerorstrongerwhoseinterest，asyouweresaying，hebeingthesuperior，itisjustthattheinferiorshouldexecute——ishearulerinthepopularorinthestrictsenseoftheterm？
　　Inthestrictestofallsenses，hesaid。Andnowcheatandplaytheinformerifyoucan；Iasknoquarteratyourhands。Butyouneverwillbeable，never。
　　Anddoyouimagine，Isaid，thatIamsuchamadmanastotryandcheat，Thrasymachus？Imightaswellshavealion。
　　Why，hesaid，youmadetheattemptaminuteago，andyoufailed。
　　Enough，Isaid，ofthesecivilities。ItwillbebetterthatIshouldaskyouaquestion：Isthephysician，takeninthatstrictsenseofwhichyouarespeaking，ahealerofthesickoramakerofmoney？
　　AndrememberthatIamnowspeakingofthetruephysician。
　　Ahealerofthesick，hereplied。
　　Andthepilot——thatistosay，thetruepilot——isheacaptainofsailorsorameresailor？
　　Acaptainofsailors。
　　Thecircumstancethathesailsintheshipisnottobetakenintoaccount；neitherishetobecalledasailor；thenamepilotbywhichheisdistinguishedhasnothingtodowithsailing，butissignificantofhisskillandofhisauthorityoverthesailors。
　　Verytrue，hesaid。
　　Now，Isaid，everyarthasaninterest？
　　Certainly。
　　Forwhichthearthastoconsiderandprovide？
　　Yes，thatistheaimofart。
　　Andtheinterestofanyartistheperfectionofit——thisandnothingelse？
　　Whatdoyoumean？
　　ImeanwhatImayillustratenegativelybytheexampleofthebody。Supposeyouweretoaskmewhetherthebodyisself—sufficingorhaswants，Ishouldreply：Certainlythebodyhaswants；forthebodymaybeillandrequiretobecured，andhasthereforeintereststowhichtheartofmedicineministers；andthisistheoriginandintentionofmedicine，asyouwillacknowledge。AmInotright？
　　Quiteright，hereplied。